Well, it’s been a long tough slog. But with availability of the new Covid vaccine there’s light at the end of the tunnel. Hopefully milongas, festivals and lessons can re-open soon.
Now the questions is, when can we re-open, what are the new rules, what is the proper etiquette and what are the responsibilities of organizers and attendees?
This is new to us and I hope that whether you are an organizer, teacher, DJ or student, you will jump into this discussion and give your input below on this important and vital topic. A few ideas for discussion are:
- Proof of vaccination
- Wearing of masks
- Number of attendees
- Liability and insurance
- Changing partners
- When can tango re-open
- Your experince in getting (or not getting) the vaccination
Anytime I think something is a little risky I balance the risks and benefits, ignore the result, and do whatever I wanted to before I balanced the risks and benefits.
Hello all!
I am so happy that we are discussing this and so happy that most of you feel that there ought to be a mandatory vaccination proof. I agree that even with that requirement we need to wait until the experts say that gathering is safe again and that will not happen until late 2021/ early 2022. Until that time I suggest that we can dance in small groups (if your state allows it) during the summer of 2021: outdoors, masked and vaccinated and only with your own partner each couple dancing and chatting socially distanced. In any case I won’t be going to any milongas if they don’t require vaccination proof. And yes addition of hand sanitizer, good ventilation is a long overdue good idea.
The timing of things getting better also coincides with people getting vaccinated. I see no mystery or miracles here, just health science…and everyone’s desire to get back to dancing being expressed in different ways. Cheers!
Here is another very good information with graphics on COVID-19 immunity expectations. (see URL reference at bottom of this note)
If we were to expect ‘back to normal’ or safe-dancing, safe-social interactions when US population reaches herd immunity, this would occur about when complete vaccinations reach ~75% to ~80%. (maybe higher due to virus mutations?)
IF the US vaccination-dose rate, the number of jabs per day, were right now, 3 million per day, we might expect US population herd immunity by early August 2021.
The US current vaccination-dose rate is 1/2 this number, just shy of 1.5 million jabs per day.
This puts ~75% population _complete_ vaccinations into December 2021. Later, first part of 2022 if the population percentage needs to be higher, say 80% or so.
The question is not about who will or will not wear a mask properly, or what constitutes a ‘proper’ mask, or about washing hands, or about how to enforce? These protocol questions are nonsense because none of this is relevant or meaningful for the close proximity of shared dance space.
The question is — at what level will the U.S. Gov, and the State of California declare “Herd immunity reached!” and “absolve from liabilities” proprietors and property owners for mass-group gatherings? (without need of PPE’s)
No matter how effective you claim your mask is — Its unlikely the owners of dance-halls, or restaurants, or theaters are willing to chance being sued by opening prior to or in defiance of State health and safety mandates.
Interactive graphics 1/2 down article.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/interactive/2021/vaccination-pace-herd-immunity/?itid=hp-more-top-stories
Great suggestions. Having been in the major event conference business for over 25 years, like yourself, we know people march to their own music, demonstrating that rules do not necessarily apply to them. Sadly, without a ‘master of protocol’ so to speak, who ensures the protocol Clay establishes, based on the latest CA/OR stats, venue protocol and CDC guidelines, is followed. Recalcitrant personalities, are prone to their own preferences, ignoring safety protocols completely, or my personal favorite, wearing their mask (as I believe this will still be a necessary precaution given Tango’s embrace) dangling like a necklace around their neck, or barely around their only their mouth. And yes, this does not sound like it will cast a negative pall over one of my favorite friendly and open festivals of a safer world. So appreciate the spirit of openness in solicitation of community opinion. Be safe!
WAHOO!!! Just got my first Covid shot last Thursday (Feb 20, 2021). It was quite an experience. Administered at an outdoor pavilion (Medford Expo Center), there were literally thousands of cars on that day–but not a problem. Hundreds of volunteers kept strict order in the line up of cars and the whole process took only about 50 minutes. I am so appreciative of all the medical researchers and officials who produced the vaccine and organizers and volunteers of the vaccination clinic. I am beginning to feel a tremendous relief and happiness that life and tango will hopefully return to normal.
Congrats, Clay – just one of the benefits of a smaller community:-))
Am in Hawaii and also got vaccinated in my car in a giant parking lot. Very efficient and safe. Sore arm with the first shot, high fever and throbbing headache with the second. But yay! It’s over. There
Is disturbing video on utube about a doctor who died 16 days after his vaccination of brain hemorrhage, but no one knows for sure what happened.
In Argentina they are dancing tango, but with a lot of rules.
I received my 1st vaccine on 1/13, second round will be next week on 2/10. So delighted! We all need to dance again!
When Can We Dance Again?
Here is the information everyone wants:
No need to speculate — These are the numbers from the Government:
“500 million total doses must be administered before all adults in the US are fully vaccinated”
~however~….
” 70% ~ 80% must be vaccinated to achieve population immunity”
==> ” the US could reach this threshold by February 2022″
There it is folks: February 2022.
If, IF, IF:
“If vaccination picks up to 1 million shots per day, herd immunity in the US could be reached by the end of 2021.”
https://www.cnn.com/2021/01/21/health/us-vaccination-timeline-analysis/index.html
Well yes pretty much the numbers I thought, however they do not subtract in natural or T-cell immunity which is still a big unknown. Then again a presumption that the vaccination will progress with no hic ups which is still a big question. The bigger problem is it is still unknown how effective the vaccines will actually be and will it also be effective with the virus mutations and then how many people will end up adversely affected by the vaccine so we are putting our faith and eggs in one basket. I tend to believe once the over 60 age group has been vaccinated much of the virus fatalities will drop significantly with the under 60 not been significantly impacted via the virus so timeline likely end of summer when things start to come back to something close to normal, All be it with a shattered economy and a lot of mental trauma as left over effects from the lock downs and persistent media tabloid reporting. It is amazing me how we have still not effectively been able to secure/lock down the most vulnerable or better use of prophylactics as this will come back to haunt us next winter again.
Getting back to when we can actually get back to tango is a sore subject. Half want to do it sooner the the other half throwing rocks for anyone thinking of it. There are many comments that we should have vaccination badges or things of the like, however it is a silly notion if the vaccine actually works then it should not matter if you are in the company of someone who has not, you are suppose to be immune to the virus. As it is many people are going to develop phobias about being in crowded places for some time and that is part of the mental issues. So the idea of dancing in close embrace with a stranger for many is not going to be a option for a very long time. So the Tango community will end up being divided between the brave and hardy and the people with siege mentality phobias, Large events will not be something we can actually think of until next year but the brave and hardy will be dong smaller invitation only events much sooner all be it with some protocols, sort of like the underground prohibition times when only the “IN” group knew were the speak easy’s were and three knocks on the door with the secret password. In the end Tango will persevere by attendance of the seriously addicted and the people where tango is a novelty will fade away. It is sad but true.
Dr Faucci guesses we could be going back to watching in theaters by September. As far as I can tell he is not taking into account the newer more contagious version of the virus, nor is he counting the possibility of moderately effective on-the-spot testing.
Until and unless large public venues are cleared to re-open by State governments, or are absolved of liability for hosting large gatherings, Insurance firms and lawyers will not tolerate exposure related lawsuits.
Regardless of hopeful brave people, temperature checks, vaccine cards: All are meaningless until large gatherings are approved (at least by State governments).
This will, I’m guessing, be about when U.S. population reaches herd immunity at about 75% total population completed vaccinations: This will be late, late fall 2021 (at best).
I further guess, as a knock-on effect, McClould ballroom will remain closed through this summer – until such time as the State permissions allow large gatherings _without_ PPEs.
In California, completed vaccinations, are an order of magnitude shy of herd immunity requirements.
Here is a good data chart to help keep track.
https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/us-covid-share-fully-vaccinated?tab=chart&stackMode=absolute&time=2021-01-12..latest&country=Arizona~California~Florida~GEO~Illinois~Indiana~Maryland~Massachusetts~Michigan~Missouri~New%20Jersey~New%20York%20State~North%20Carolina~Ohio~Pennsylvania~Tennessee~Texas~Virginia~Washington~Wisconsin®ion=World
*correction:
In California, completed vaccinations, are _2_ (two) orders of magnitude shy of herd immunity requirements.
Well yes large events will not happen anytime soon, gov tend to under react or over react on things and I do not think they will wave the green flag until next year summer. Private events under 50- typically 30-40 with reasonable protocols likely by this summer depending on your region. When restaurants, pubs, fitness centers begin to open so will the private events, there really is no difference dancing with 6 people vs sitting with six people.
The over focus on lock downs is a double edged sword, temporary solve one problem only to make for long lasting other problems. No matter how well or how long you do a lock down it just comes back as soon as things open a tad it is not a sustainable option. The reality this virus is a aerosol so floats in the air for hours, and only one micron in size so easily goes through most face masks So the masks are really only somewhat effective in reducing cough spray it just reduces the distance,Actually the surgical masks that are popular use to have a warning label stating they were not intended for virus protection. Then the alcohol based sanitizers are not disinfectants they are really only good as a general germicide and not very effective for this virus. Every time you wait in line at a grocery store you likely get a low viral load of this virus, my point being is there is no way of escaping the reality of infection more important to learn on how to live with it, it is going to be around for a long time.
There are things we cannot change but there are two things that we can do but are not well promoted. Boosting your immune system with vitamins D,C and Zinc and for good measure selenium and melatonin will make a huge difference on people not getting ill, Then the next thing is not to buy into the hyper panic the tabloid news is pushing. It creates anxiety which accelerates stress, which in itself will make you sick and vulnerable to every virus and illness. I think common sense has been pushed to the back of the line with this nonsensical approach to the virus
I sat on the Board of Directors for the Clark County (Vancouver, WA.) Health Department for 25 years. I dealt with Infectious Disease. Yes I am taking the Vaccine when it is available. Mark Carey Rees
Philadelphia Argentine Tango School hosted a Zoom last night that hopefully was recorded. Dr. Ian Frank, Tango Dancer and a leading infectious disease specialist in the mid-Atlantic area from of Hospital of University of Pennsylvania, giving a lecture on the COVID pandemic and why we are coming to the end. It was highly informative and full of science. Most of the posts on this survey are inaccurate. https://www.facebook.com/philadelphiatangoschool
Hello All, I haven’t had time enough to read every comment. But I am here to let you know that last night I sat in on a Zoom meeting hosted by Philadelphia Argentine Tango School (https://www.facebook.com/philadelphiatangoschool). It was entitled “The beginning of the End of Covid-19”. Dr. Ian Frank, from the Hospital of the University of Pennsylvania, a leading infectious disease specialist in the mid-Atlantic AND also a tango dancer. His presentation was thorough, included infographic slides, and he spoke about the science of the virus. It was a college-level lecture. He made it understandable, yet he did not dumb down the information. I came away with a clear understanding of the science of the virus, the epidemiology, and also a fairly clear idea of exactly what the mRNA vaccine is, how it came about, and how it works. The bottom line is that most of what people are saying on this survey about the efficacy of the vaccines or ( from clear deniers) whether this is anythign more than the regular flu- is inaccurate at best. Dr. Frank was very optimistic about the vaccine and he went into great detail on the research that was done for the vaccines that actually started a year ago. He assuaged my concerns about it and I am now very excited to get it ( I’m not an anti-vaxxer so I was going to anyway, with apprehension), although I am lower down on the priority list. I believe that the zoom meeting was recorded. I hope it will be made available for all of us…hell, anyone, non-dancers included. The more people who understand it the way that Dr. Frank explained it, the sooner we will all get back to dancing. I did see some comments here about human nature- that as things get a little better, people will lower their level of diligence, thus perpetuating the spread of the virus, extending its life and ability to mutate. So True! We must do everything in our power, NOW! Keep in mind…getting the vaccine is not your key to living a normal life again. We MUST all continue to distance socially and wear a mask – yes, over your mouth AND nose!- until over 75% of us have been vaccinated. (that will probably be by fall of 2021- assuming a large portion of deniers get vaccinated) That is the only way to reach herd immunity. I know that phrase has been thrown about for months to push a certain agenda, where 75% of all of us need to get the virus. This means that thousands more of us will die. So we need to all get the vaccine- a far better and faster way to get to that 75%. Meanwhile, we must continue to throttle back on our social events and wear our damn masks. If everyone took a little lesson from the Three Muskateers, “All for One, and One for All”, we can get through this more quickly. This, unfortunately, means that we have to stay away from Festivals, Milongas, and dancing face to face. It is too risky, and too dangerous, as some have mentioned above. For me, I’m hoping to do a lot of travel for Tango in 2022. But not before. It sucks, but it is the right thing to do. For those of you who have said on this survey that you’re not going to attend any event that requires vaccination proof or masks, etc. Good. We don’t need you to put us at risk. Also, perhaps learn more about the science of this pandemic. Maybe find the video of Dr. Frank. Learn how to do your part. Thanks.
Covid-19 has been frightening and fatal. But within 2 years it is likely to be just another virus which the whole human population has either had or been vaccinated for. In between, we will be balancing risks and rewards. With no absolutes. What reduces risk is dancing in small private groups where everybody in the group has little exposure otherwise. In short, people with low exposures dancing with other people with low exposures. Masks, sanitizer, and fresh air help some too. Altogether, such a situation feels about the same risk as dining out. So I suggest listening to the local decision balancing the risks and rewards of restaurant dining. We may get more accurate about the risks, and we each have our own values about the rewards with time. One thought is something not emphasized in the discussion: everyone shares openly what their otherwise exposure is. This will be illustrated when some take a week off consequent to, say, a travel weekend or a visiting relative.
However, the key discussion is about larger groups and strangers. That is, real milongas. Perhaps this is like going to the movies, for the general public. Presumably, mask, vaccinations, and air circulation reduce the risks somewhat. Also useful for dancers might be the assurance that the other dancers are cautious outside of tango. That they wear masks, and avoid places where people don’t. But my guess is that the risks are 100 times greater than for a private tango bubble. Dancers will judge from the rules they read about before they go, and how people seem when the get there, whether they will stay or not. Each has their personal idea about what the risks are, and how much the rewards matter.
The problem that is coming up is the more contagious version of the virus. There is a lot not known yet, but it looks to make it very difficult to achieve herd immunity. Which means dancers will have to rely upon personal immunity, meaning vaccine or recovery from sickness.
The final technical issue is a powerful one for the good. Testing for antibodies. This testing is likely to be easy, cheap, and fast. By April? Like all the other stuff, it won’t be perfect, but it should eliminate 90% of the random unsuspected cases from causing exposure. With both vaccination and testing, public milongas might be viable. They would be in my own, personal, assessment of risk and reward.
Sorry, no. The Risk is too high.
Speculating on risk levels, transmission rates, “will I dance with/without mask”, What level of social distancing — with now 4 (four) New, more virulent (faster spreading) mutation strains…
{B.1.1.7, B.1.351, Brazil:P.1, California(New) }
All such speculation is haplessly misinformed at this stage.
This is not a ‘bad flu’: The COVID19 infection is a SARs disease; with increasing evidence of long-term health effects including possible permanent lung damage.
No tanda, no memories of any tanda, however good, will make up for shortness of breath climbing the stairs; or being chained daily to an oxygen tank for the remainder of our geriatric lives.
Vaccinations reduce the risk – certainly I will get vaccinated.
Those who defiantly /won’t/ get vaccinated — will willingly lie about it so vaccination ‘cards’/proof will be fraught with irregularities and fakes.
Masks – reduce risk, not prevent. Limiting time exposure is critical. As is distance. The close embrace environment of tango makes masks almost useless. Whether talking or not, the aerosol carriers of virus still exist in a cloud around both dancers – for extended periods of time. The variability of masks, which is unenforceable, guarantees partners are breathing the same air, the same aerosols.
>> If we have to ‘mask-up’: things are not ready for tango.
>> if we can’t change-partners (due to risk): things are not ready for tango.
As much as I do miss tango,
Until and unless – SCIENTISTS and Medical Experts give the O.K. to return to full proximity operations, SANS PPE, The downside risks are simply too high.
No one dances Tango so sublimely, for me to risk permanent lung damage. No one.
If PPEs are still required?–> the risk is too high.
Further more; UNTIL State agencies green light full contact, large-gatherings, with no conditions or liability clause: This is all mute.
Certainly, we can be hopeful, as Clay is, as many of us are – that this will all go away soon —
However, It’s extremely unrealistic that vaccine roll-out and new-case numbers will drop significantly by the event cancellation date. Last year this was about the end of March.
I expect the delays in vaccines & vaccinations, and tediously slow decrease in acceptable numbers will argue for cancellation again this year, sad to say.
2022 will, perhaps, be a good year for tango events.
Prior to _fall_ 2021 AND the State lifting bans on gatherings… unlikely.
Realism :: unpleasant ( I understand.)
— Physicist.
Sorry my dear but your anxiety is far too much for you dance tango anytime soon. You need to get a grip on things. For your expectation maybe next year this may be a possibility and then only maybe
Did you have something constructive to add? Or do you just want to continue with pop-psychology and ad hominem attacks on someone you’ve never met?
“You” statements are risky business.
First off, non-private tango events should (or must!) follow public health rules, which are being handled on a wait-and-see basis for now. It’s not appropriate to second guess that, unless we do so in private gatherings. Private gatherings are smaller and more a possibility for the near term.
A milonga being fundamentally a close up chance to dance and socialize with whom you mutually choose, I feel that social distancing or limiting partners in this setting is reductio ad absurdum. In classes or practicas, that may differ since their purpose is different.
However, improving ventilation and sanitation are very sensible in any future dance scenario. And I think we should consciously try to make comfortable those who prefer to wear a mask, and those who prefer not to. We could require people to agree to wear a different wrist band if they are unvaccinated, facilitating choices–or possibly prohibit unvaccinated people from some events (but this feels extreme).
Personally I think it’s foolish to decline the vaccination, and anti-social to rely on herd immunity as an alternative to vaccination.
Even so, it’s not at all clear we can achieve herd immunity anytime soon, and we are all adults who can make our own choices. Some people will say this is reckless, but I consider it the role of public health to set these standards, and then we can make our own choices as appropriate.
PS – as far as releases go, I think organizers deserve protection provided they follow public health rules.
– Proof of vaccination – yes (also maybe set an expectation of having a recent flu shot)
– masks – no
– limits on number of attendees – no (dancing on an empty floor is not that fun)
– changing partners – yes
– temperatures checks – no (we haven’t done that before, so with a vaccine in place we shouldn’t need to)
I suggest you have color coded buttons that you can pin to your upper torse clothing stating “Vaccinated” or “Not Vaccinated”. It just lets everyone know, and then people can make their own decision. I suggest everyone wear a mask of some type while they are in the building. I prefer dancing with people I’ve never met and don’t know at all when I go to a festival. I can dance with all my favorite local dancers when I am home, but I love dancing with people who I have no idea about. My best dances have been with complete and absolute strangers. Life is a beautiful mystery. I also suggest you speak to the local health official (if one is available) when you set up the event. I think they will give you some very good ideas to protect us and the McCloud Community.
It seems people have a fantasy the a vaccine is going to be the silver bullet that will resolve everything. It will be helpful but it will not cure everyone and everything, this virus will mutate which it already has, so it will be back every year, Oct 1 and ends May 2 every year just like clockwork like the influenza which by the way is the same H1N1 virus. H1N1 comes back pretty much every 10 yrs or as a pandemic. The 2009 Bird Flu, then the Hong Kong flu, then the Asian Flu and of-coarse the Spanish flu etc, all the same H1N1 virus just different mutated species. The reality we will need to learn to live with it as we have with every virus and bacteria infection in the past and stop living in fear. The only light in the tunnel is this virus is basically a old persons aliment, along with a long list of other aliments which is prevalent with aging.
With bureaucrats chasing their tail into a lock down madness I do not see much improvement this year. Lock downs really do not work they can slow things down a bit but only extends the pain and makes for other bigger problems. As soon as you open things up a tad it starts all over again so it is not a viable solution. Vaccines have issues and I do not see a major part of the population being vaccinated till the end of the year. So this discussion is redundant for the here and now. As it is for public events dance events will be the last of the last to open, small private events are likely possible by summer but that is about it. Sorry Clay but Burning Tango does not stand a snowballs chance in hell, remember it is in California the most lock down crazy state in the union need I say more.
see my post about the lecture given by a doctor and tango dancer hosted by Philadelphia argentine tango school. His information says that because this is mRna, the mutations will not be affected. the mutations are not happening on the “protein spike” that is targeted by this vaccine. so the news is better than what you are saying. which is a bit of a relief.
Defiantly Proof of Vaccination has to be a requirement. Someone unwilling to do that, is not likely to be practicing other protocols that keep other and themselves safe.
Open to a mask wearing requirement at the start, but that might not be as important or effective in a milonga situation. By the time events start up again, we should have more evidence about the effectiveness of mass vaccination in real world situations.
Any other measures that are helpful should be implemented – Fresh air circulation, hand sanitizer, etc.
I won’t be doing much until I get the vaccine and many others do as well. I want to see the case numbers drop to the point that hospitals are able to cope and there is empirical evidence the coronavirus is under control.
There probably will be travel checks for some time. I don’t expect to travel until these protocols are uncomplicated.
I most likely will dance locally for a while. I don’t want to end up somewhere in quarantine.
They are finding some people who recover from Covid have lingering conditions that are debilitating. This is true for people who had mild symptoms or even were asymptomatic, not only for people who had severe cases
Menelaos Karanikolas is right, it is too early yet to know. There needs to be lots data within a vaccinated community. Right now we are just hearing the echo of our own voices.
Can a milonga really be fun in masks with social distancing? Maybe that first milonga will be well attended. But if all are that cautious, will they actually attend regularly?
As an organizer myself. I am happy to wait and see what the herd is doing, and if they stay well doing it. I think we’ll know when we know. For now it is too early to know.
Jo and I will see you when we can safely dance and feel good about it… stay well!
Big Hugs,
Rusty
Sorry, but that is NOT accurate. A vaccine, by definition, is intended – fully intended – as a disease preventative. If they did not prevent disease they would NOT be vaccines.
If all they did was to prevent severe reactions, that would presume administration post-infection making them “therapeutics” and not “vaccines”. Two entirely different things.
You may be confusing vaccines with blood plasma and monoclonal antibody therapy, which do minimize the chance of a severe reaction.
Can you get sick even if you are vaccinated? Can you develop a severe case even after receiving treatment? Unequivocally, YES. Why? Because the human body is infinitely variable and there are zero guarantees in life.
Thanks for your clarity Jess.
It amazes me how many gravitate towards an untested unproven DNA altering mRNA “fix” over more proven and natural protocols..
And further, how many feel that hiding behind and rushing to the false security of the “jab”, oh yeah multiple “jabs”, as opposed to taking the more natural course and responsibility of eating healthy and taking proven supplementation …
I agree it is not a vaccine but at best a mitigation tool, at worst a false belief and hope.
John, my post was meant as a response to a post by Julia, below. I messed up and it wound up as the standalone post you replied to, so it’s out of context. I was merely drawing a distinction between vaccines and therapeutics. They are two entirely different classes of medication with different purposes.
However, I do want to by crystal clear that I am fully in favor of vaccinations for everyone as soon as they are made available. The technology that went into making both the Pfizer and Moderna vaccines, mRNA, has been around for about ten years but had been following the “traditional” vaccine approval route. Moreover, they had no active infection to produce a vaccine for until SARS-CoV-2 came along.
I think that from this point forward we’ll see mRNA technology used much more broadly in vaccine development, potentially even for the annual flu vaccine. It is much faster than traditional vaccine production. Stay well.
see my post about the lecture given by a doctor and tango dancer hosted by Philadelphia Argentine tango school. His information says that mRNA vaccines work differently than what we are accustomed to in the past with virology. hopefully, the lecture was recorded and you can watch it and understand it. I cannot explain it, that’s for sure.
Certainly proof of vaccination for all attendees would be sufficient and required if we want people to feel comfortable and safe to show up.
Mask wearing would not make sense considering the etiquette and energy of what milongas are all about. If there’s mask wearing it just wouldn’t feel like tango. Facial expressions mean so much in this dance.
Number of attendees should not be limited if everyone has shown proof of vaccination.
I don’t see any reason why the current liability and insurance policies for putting on any dance event should be altered in any way. Perhaps there should be a penalty of some sort for those who may attempt to falsify records regarding vaccination. (No more invites to festivals or milongas for example).
Of course changing partners. That is one of the key components of tango; The cabeceo and getting to dance with so many wonderful people. The tanda and music itself determines who we dance with for that set. (Or at least hopefully it does for most of us 🙂
I’m an RN. I’m horrified that people are fussing over which rules they’d be ok with. Rules that are meant to keep us alive, well, and dancing in the future. We should collectively be advocating for strict guidelines!
I don’t think we are ready. Vaccination is not yet widespread—and people find every excuse not to vaccinate.
Grown adults still have not even mastered wearing a mask correctly. I see masks slung under noses on a regular basis. People understand/follow seatbelt mandates, but insist masks mandates are excessive governmental control. It’s bonkers.
If people haven’t gotten their act together by now, I don’t trust them to be in close embrace with me or others in our community.
I think whenever we do open events, we should observe the rules Paul Palmintere described at baseline. These are not extraordinary safety precautions. This is reality.
One other factor to consider, is not just your rules regarding the Milonga, but the rules of the facility in which you will run the event. Being involved with a large volunteer organization that used to meet in person 2x a month, we decided on the following:
1. We aren’t in control of the facility. In our case, we gain our space from a synagogue and they have their very own strict rules which we must obey. They are still not open, but we recognize we are subservient to their rules whatever they may be. Not open to negotiation. They have a lot of older congregants and are very careful in protecting them.
2. Our 80 person organization decided to appoint a ‘medical master of arms’, a fancy term for a medical professional in our group who is a doctor (we actually have a fair number of doctors in the group so no lack of opinions/2nd opinions). The medical professional in our group is responsible for a) understanding the synagogue’s requirements and b) understanding our counties requirements to ensure there are no glaring deficiencies or oversights. This isn’t foolproof of course but gives us some assurance that we are making the decisions to meet in the future in our own informed manner and not just blindly following the rules of the venue. We expect the venue’s rules to be stricter than the county’s but this gives our group some confidence in decision making.
Hope that helps.
Gary
I’ll want to dance once I’m vaccinated. My first thought is that it should be up to individual judgement to decide about dancing without vaccination. My second thought is that conducting an event with unvaccinated dancers endangers not only the all of the unvaccinated in the dance community but whole society. I believe the unvaccinated should not attend events until the local infection rate is like New Zealand.
There is no one size fits all solution. What works in Ashland Oregon won’t work in New York City. What works in New York city won’t work in Buenos Aires. What will work in San Francisco a year from now won’t work in San Francisco today. What works six feet apart outside won’t work in close embrace in a poorly ventilated room.
Plus, you forget human nature. People have a tremendous ability to minimize their perception of risks when they get in the way of what they want to do, or simply disbelieve anything that is inconvenient.
Take a look at past history to see what will happen. Once things start to come under control people will jump to the conclusion that we are out of the woods. Someone will open a small event, with careful rules, and people will be lax with those rules until they are no longer followed. Events that are meant to be small will attract large crowds from a wide range as people want to dance after so long. In a few of those events, there will be outbreaks.
If someone has a large event with a draw from a wide geographic range, someone will show up from an area having an outbreak, and due to people being lax with the rules, the outbreak will spread to a bunch of local groups.
What we need to be thinking about is how we are going to rebuild the worldwide tango community about a year from now. A lot of small communities have been in danger of going away for years, as people get out of the habit of dancing, or age out and stop dancing, many of those communities will lose their critical mass to keep things going.
Right now, we should be thinking about how to recruit new dancers among people who have never been dancing but have been starved for close contact for a year or two? What can we do to bring people’s skills up? What can we do to get people to practice fundamentals in the mean time, even if they live alone and have nobody to dance with?
There will be cycles of open up, shut down, open up shut down.
Brilliant!
Age out out dancing? Only in America!
Once I’ve been vaccinated (two shots) it’s unlikely I’ll get infected. That’s why they developed the vaccine. If all of the tangueros at a milonga have also been vaccinated I would feel safe resuming dancing as usual, no masks and changing partners. Who would be at risk in that situation?
The human body takes about two weeks to respond to an infection whether real or via vaccine. So two weeks before it begins making antibodies. Prior to that, you can still be infected, develop the disease, and be contagious.
Also, we all need to be aware that, by the time Burning Tango starts in 2021, we will have lived with the SARS-CoV-2 here in the US for only about 15 months, which is nothing. We all need to acknowledge that there is a lot we don’t know. I say this because, no matter what we do as a community, there will be anomalies if for no other reason than the newness of the virus. This means risk. Given the availability of the vaccines, I accept that risk.
Dancing anything with another human being requires a level of intimacy. Tango more so. Thus, if we really want to tango, we have to acknowledge and accept this fact and its commensurate risk. Bear in mind, we have always undertaken this risk for every communicable disease but most frequently colds and the flu.
We also have to acknowledge that from now until about the end of 2022 will be a period of transition from rampant, uncontrolled infections to disease management. This means a lot of unknowns and trial and error so we all need to be understanding and patient. And hopeful. We will emerge slowly, with trepidation, but we will emerge.
Lastly, we have to trust our fellow dancer. We have to believe that they are not being careless, that they have not bent the rules, that they will pass on events if they have any symptoms of any disease, that they care as much about us as they do about themselves. This is where personal responsibility and integrity come into the equation. If you see me at Burning Tango, it will be because I was fully vaccinated AT LEAST two weeks prior to the start and I am completely symptom free.
That said, if it were my event I would do the following:
• Require a signed liability waiver from all attendees
• Require proof of full, two dose inoculation AT LEAST two weeks prior, preferably longer
• Mask wearing optional. Some people will feel more comfortable and that’s their right
• Pass on temperature checks. They are dispositive of nothing and are mostly theater
• No limits on attendance given the first two bullets above
• Ditto on changing partners
• Despite vaccine availability I would still see to proper air circulation i.e. large fans on either end of the hall, some blowing air in, others blowing air out
• I would probably limit food till late 2021 or until we have things fully controlled
• Water has to be available but I would require attendees bring their own containers or limit to single use paper cups
We all have our fingers crossed for Burning Tango 2021 and, with a bit of luck, it will happen.
I agree with your list, and add one thing that I have always ( pre-pandemic) wanted to see:
Along with Water stations, we need sanitation stations. big bottles of sanitizer. also, have a sanitizer machine at the entrance of each room of milongas or classes, etc.
Each time you walk through the door, show your wristband, use the sanitizer. and add sanitizer at tables. I used to catch colds regularly at festivals, and I always wanted to see an increase in hygiene.
This is Randall Crane from Oakland. I expect to start coming to events with dancers who can show that they are vaccinated and keep up with boosters. Hope to see you there. Great thanks to Clay for keeping the torch burning.
Some may not like what I say but he reality is there is nothing new about covid it has been around for a very long time it just mutates every year,This species prays on the weak and aged, previous H1N1 covid viruses preyed on the young and the healthy, so in a twisted way we are almost lucky on this variant. This is essentially a old personas ailment, very few fatalities under 70. Not to marginalize things but 90% of the ICUs and fatalities are over 70 which represents 10% of the population, for this group this virus spreads like wildfire and is deadly. If you are under 70 in good health with no major health issues it is highly unlikely you will be adversely affected even if you somehow contract the virus as there is very good therapeutics . The bigger problem now is so many people living in fear and hence the economic and emotional fall out that will become evident later this year. Take your vitamins D3,C and Zinc daily it will have a huge effect on a healthy immune system.
It is unlikely we will see any public events this year and it will not be back to normal for some time. . A lot of great hope that the vaccine will somehow be the silver bullet however try not get to confident on that it will be very helpful but not the cure all, as the virus is mutating already. If it works the benefits will be largely with the over 70 age group
A glimmer of hope for the end of summer or early fall but that is just a hope right now and only if the vaccine works and only if a sufficient part of the population gets it. If anything smaller private events under 50 people with reasonable protocols will be the most likely outcome. The days of dancing with everyone in the room will not be a reality for a long time, doing digital temperature checks. limited seating at tables – limited partner changes and administration on who attends so only invited quests no drop inns will be the norm for this year.
I don’t think it is a matter of not liking what you’re saying here. It is not a matter of opinion. It is a matter of fact. And the fact of the matter is, your post is highly inaccurate. Try and see if you can watch the lecture by Dr. Frank, hosted by Philadelphia Argentine Tango School last night. It might help you understand.
Definitely a big no on proof of taking the mRNA altering Vax. I’m out if you, the airline, or Fred Meyer requires proof. This new Vax is too new, not proven to be effective, and requires more than one jab. Stay healthy, keep your immune system strong, be responsible, and not go if you are compromised in any way. Isn’t that what most of us have been doing all along anyway? Besides and unfortunately, a majority of the “cases” were the very elderly with very compromised immune systems and that is not the majority of people I’ve see at festivals from Oregon, Mexico, and Hawaii for the past seven years…
My preference is to dance with more spacing anyway and suggest either smaller groups and pay more, or we agree to take a break every other tanda to keep the spacing more open and more fun.
A big no on wearing the fear mask face diaper….
So Clay, is that enough to break the grip of fear and gear up for Valentango?
Tango on, hopefully…
I’m ready to dance now.. and I don’t have any requisites for anyone else who wants to dance with me . regards, Mario
I’d cancelled all my Tango classes & events early last March when my son in law (a Seattle fireman) called to ask me to take the news very seriously. My quarantine pod includes only immediate family. Yes, it is difficult at times – but I want to enjoy my grandchildren growing up!! I miss Tango dearly, deeply & daily – but I put my (& my family’s) health first..!
For anyone looking at vaccine availability “opening up” venues. Politically, it might. Functionally, it makes zero sense. As publicly acknowledged by both vaccine manufacturers approved by the FDA in the USA, their vax does NOT prevent. COVID spread or even reduce the risk of catching the decrease. Only “good” for reducing the risk of having serious complications (already, rare for individuals who are not immune compromised).
Sorry, but that is NOT accurate. A vaccine, by definition, is intended – fully intended – as a disease preventative. If they did not prevent disease they would NOT be vaccines.
If all they did was to prevent severe reactions, that would presume administration post-infection making them “therapeutics” and not “vaccines”. Two entirely different things.
You may be confusing vaccines with blood plasma and monoclonal antibody therapy, which do minimize the chance of a severe reaction.
Can you get sick even if you are vaccinated? Can you develop a severe case even after receiving treatment? Unequivocally, YES. Why? Because the human body is infinitely variable and there are zero guarantees in life.
Jess,
Sadly, I am not confused.
Many are. The new shots labeled as “vaccines “ are nothing but. Gene therapy is more accurate. This might help you? All the Best!
https://www.greenmedinfo.com/blog/video-are-mrna-covid-19-vaccines-veiled-forms-gene-or-chemo-therapy?utm_campaign=Daily%20Newsletter%3A%20Astonishing%20COVID-19%20Testing%20Fraud%20Revealed%20%28VTyHuV%29&utm_medium=email&utm_source=Daily%20Newsletter&_ke=eyJrbF9jb21wYW55X2lkIjogIksydlhBeSIsICJrbF9lbWFpbCI6ICJqdWxpYV9tYXJrb3ZhQGhvdG1haWwuY29tIn0%3D
LOL!
This is Paul Palmintere (a long-time tango veteran & instructor, from both Las Vegas & Los Angeles). I have discussed this issue with other tango professionals. For quite a long time, as the future unfolds, the only good & safe way to approach classes, practicas, & milongas will be to require the following:
1) Wearing masks mandatory, at all times.
2) “Couples Only,” no drop-in singles. Every attendee must bring a partner to dance with.
3) No rotating partners. Every attendee must dance only with his/her partner.
4) Only 1 couple per table, and tables spread out.
5) No snack tables, to discourage congregating. Snacks should be left on attendees’ tables before starting time.
6) A limit to the number of couples.
7) No talking with, or congregating with, other attendees.
8) Extra ventilation; outdoor events would be preferable when possible.
9) Proof of vaccination, or recent negative test, should probably be required.
These restrictions should be maintained until about 85 percent of the local population has been vaccinated.
Paul,
If that is your conclusion along with other Tango professionals, then I hope you have another source of income because you won’t get any of my money with those restrictions…
I’ll just build my own dance floor and host my own events without the fear and control…
Tango on…
Yup that is the most practicle solution for the here and now, and you are not alone I do the same
John, I think Paul’s solutions are excellent safety measures that could allow the tango community to begin holding events again. If you are hosting your own events, you are part of the reason the US is still struggling so much with this pandemic.
I agree that there ought to be a place for us dancers who are not into the fear hype of the mass media. Mario
Wearing masks mandatory, no rotating partners, no talking with, or congregating with other attendees…With this all, it is not tango and milonga any more. Tango has become the greatest partner dance and loved by the entire world, by every country because it does the just opposite things – intimacy, human connection, energy vibes, and fusion with music and partner. If tango is going to return (and that depends of all of us together), it must be the same real and lovely tango as it is used to be prior to the events of 2020, with just one adjustment – take it at your own risk, because we all know now what the risks are (thanks to Dr. Fauci) and that there are still many unknowns that we may never know.
Proof of vaccination for sure.
Agree with previous poster that not changing partners means we’re not ready. Reduced numbers-yes
Masks optional
I think it will take me a while to psychologically let go of some protocols and I even had my first vaccination last week.
Breathing the same air still feels risky, especially when faces are smushed together.
Clay can you explain what the insurance would be for?
People could sign waivers, maybe?
Temp checks at door – yes.
Hand sanitizer everywhere
HEPA filters in room (plenty)
I don’t mind waiting longer to make sure the world is safer.
Only masks for a while and a requirement to sign a liability waiver, possibly forever. No other controls. No proof of vaccination as many people may not be able or want to have it, no limits on changing partner because that would be against the basic tenets of Argentine tango. The number of attendees needs to be what an organizer needs to have to cover their expenses. To be real tango events, a room needs to be packed to the maximum. We all know what we are dealing with and we are capable of making our own choices and there is no need for organizers to make those choices for the attendees.
As a physician, I think it is a bit too early to have this conversation, because there are still too many unknowns. I propose it would make more sense to have this conversation in 2-3 months, after we have consistency at the federal level for some time, some idea how vaccination is going, and we are off the COVID peak we experience now.
I am hoping for “vaccination required” events, which are otherwise “normal” without any other strings attached, no masks, no distancing, “business as usual”. But, what we hope and what we get can be different.
I agree with this statement the most of any…we just don’t know enough. Do I miss tango, geez, don’t we all. But still so much unknown and the guidelines are what they are and still they will be challenged. The longing and desire to dance is fierce, so I say, give it time to settle down some more. We truly don’t know how the new strains are gonna move through.
Miss you all
Let’s listen to a medical professional. Let’s wait a few months to see how things develop.
Proof of vaccination by all attendees, wearing masks, non-liability release to be signed by all attendees. Talk to an attorney for the non-liability release.
Changing partners would be ok if the above three points are met
Proof of vaccination will be number. But in the beginning, I will feel more comfortable if there will be limit to attendees to observe the situation. I am not entirely sure about changing partners and face masks. On one hand, they seem to be the right precautions but too many precautions also take away the essence of tango.
I’ll wait at least another year to see how things turn out. There are currently too many unknowns. And by then it will have been 2 years and the community will have to be mostly rebuilt from the ground up. It’s just the way it is. We had a good run but I don’t think it will return to the previous level anytime soon.
I think it is too soon to reopen events. When the time comes, I think mask mandates and proof of both doses of vaccination is the least we can do. If your connection is so disrupted with a mask, your connection wasn’t very good to begin with. A mask will not “take away the essence of tango”.
I agree with you about masks not interfering with connection.
>Agree with proof of vaccination, reduced attendance (probably higher fees, I’d guess).
>Don’t know about liability and insurance.
>Strongly disagree with mask-wearing (if we need masks, we are not ready).
>Yes on changing partners (if we can’t change partners, we are not ready).
>Other: Infrared temperature check at the door (don’t know why this hasn’t been done before except for possible conflict-generation; seems essential for all types of ordinary infections too).
>Bottom line: If we have vaccines on board, keep folks with elevated temperatures out, and don’t over-pack the room, we should be good to go. (I would maybe be willing to mask-up for local events, but would not travel.)